X James THELWELLDear Maurice,Thank you for your nicely worded request forinformation concerning the Thelwell family ofPolice officers, you would be surprised how manyenquires we get from people who never say pleaseor thank you, but first I have to say a fewthings. The photographs you sent were wonderfuland it will be a delight to add them to theirrespective database entries. I will deal withJames first and then write a further report in acouple of days time concerning Ernest and Charles,this is because I have one book to check which Icannot gain access to for a couple of days andthen of course I will have to search it for theany information appertaining to them. I wastotally wrong when I suggested that Ernest was amember of another force and I should have checkedwith the information of the Memorial Plaque, andfor which I apologise, incidentally the names ofall officers killed in both World Wars are readout each year on Remembrance Day, and one thing isfor certain, I will have a little more informationthis year. At this present moment we have a'Volunteer Friend of the Museum' who is in Francevisiting many of the Graves of the officers, if bysome chance he does get a photograph of the WarMemorial on which Ernest is recorded I willcertainly let you have one, but to move on.The Cheshire Constabulary was formed in April1857; there are many thousands of records, theseare held by the Cheshire Record Office, Chester.As a retired Police officer and voluntary PoliceMuseum Researcher I am slowly extracting theserecords. Cheshire Police Officer Enrolment Recordsare held under Reference CJP7 Volumes 1-5. Thesefive volumes are very large and in poor condition,run from 1857- 22 March 1913; the informationwhich you seek would therefore be recorded inVolume 4. The information regarding his marriageis retained in CJP24/2, 1847-1966, and with regardto his pension CJP20/2/1, 1857-1965.I say all this because I want to try and reassureyou that what I give you is as it appears in therespective volumes. However if you so wish, youcan of course have the records confirmed by theChester Records Office Archivist. But it would beremiss of me if I did not point out that TheRecord Office will charge you a minimum of £27 persearch per volume; therefore your total bill wouldbe £81, so please be aware. The Record Office willhave no information appertaining to Ernest orCharlesIf you also read the history of the CheshireConstabulary "To the Best of Our Skill andKnowledge" which is on the Museum Web Site, underthe drop down menu marked 'History', I feelcertain that a useful picture can be obtained oflife in the force at the time, my own opinion isthat discipline was draconian and those whostrayed outside the rule's were fined way abovewhat they earned or dismissed. Also therestrictions on their private life, an officer wasnot allowed to drink on or off duty even in hisown home. It all comes down to the fact that upuntil the 1960's every Chief Constable of Cheshirewas an ex military officer and they of coursebrought with them the military codes of practice.I trust you will enjoy what follows and can I askyou when you get a moment would you send a quickmail so I can mark of your enquiry as completed.If you have any further questions please don'thesitate to contact me.Jim Talbot. Trustee and Researcher, CheshireMuseum of Policing.Collar Number/Rank. PC321 James THELWELLBorn. 1863 Bickley, Cheshire.Date of Entry. 13th December 1886Date of Leaving. 31st October 1913How Discharged. To pensionInitial Posting. HQ Reserve Division at Chester.Other Postings and Dates. 22nd January 1887Wirral, 16th February 1895 Eastham, 11th June 1898Neston, 8th April 1905 Broxton (Tilston). 1st May1910 Broxton (Pulford).Miscellaneous Information. Previous OccupationLabourer. Religion Protestant, Height 5' 10", Age23, Eyes Brown, Hair Dark, Complexion Fresh, BuildProportional. Certificate of Service withcharacter marked as "Good" sent to him 30thOctober 1913.Age on retirement 50 years 2 months.Total service 26 years 317 days.Died 19th June 1919 aged 55 years 7 months.Widow Catherine awarded 26/- per week from 25thNovember 1948. Residence given as 38 OverleighRoad, Chester.Father of Ernest and Charles Thelwell.Promotion. None Recorded.Misconduct. 8th January 1894 (1) Neglect of dutyby not meeting Constables Hatton and Foster atPrenton Water Works at 11pm after telephoning fortheir assistance to remove some Gypsy's whoencamped on the Highway (2) Making a false entryin his journal, that he had attended the WaterWorks to remove these Gypsy's and that there wereno Constables there to assist him to remove them,Fined 5/-, by Chief Constable.24th January 1896 Receiving from the County amoney allowance in respect of Water Rates forCottage at Woodchurch, calculated at the rate of12/- per annum, whereas he only paid 8/9d perannum, dating from the 26th June 1893 to the 16thFebruary 1895, Fined 15/- by the Chief Constable.12th April 1905 Drinking upon Licensed Premiseswhile upon duty and in uniform at Broxton, Fined10/- by Chief Constable.Weekly Pay. 13th December 1886 23/11d, 30thSeptember 1887 24/6d, 1st January 1890 25/8d, 1stJanuary 1891 26/10d, 1st July 1891 28/-, 1stJanuary 1892 29/2d, 1st January 1894 30/4d, 1stJanuary 1899 31/6d, 1st April 1912 33/3d.Discharged on a pension of £57.15s.10d per annum.Total time on pension 5 years 225 days.Total pension received £324. 15s. 1d.Awards/Good Conduct/Other information. NoneRecorded.Marriage RecordOfficer. James THELWELLOccupation. Police ConstableAge. 26 years.Condition. BachelorPlace of residence at Marriage. Woodchurch,Cheshire.Date of Marriage. 22nd October 1889Place Married. St. Mary's Church, Edge Hill,Liverpool.Fathers Name. William THELWELLFathers Occupation. Farmer.Spouse. Catherine JONESOccupation. Not recorded.Age. 26 yearsCondition. SpinsterPlace of residence. Leopold Road, (location notgiven)Fathers Name. Thomas JONESFathers Occupation. Publican, Lancashire.To Jim TalbotDear Jim, Thank you for your prompt reply to myenquiryAttached are three photos of the three familymembers and a group photo of the seven officersthat I believe was taken at the Ecclelstonstation. James is the officer on the right. Ithought it may be of use to you for your recordsand possibly identifying the others.James died in 1919 aged 58 and buried atHandbridge cemetery and possibly lived at 38Overleigh Rd. Handbridge in property owned by theDuke of Westminster.Ernest being 24 when he was killed in 1916 couldhave only been a constable for a short time,possibly four years.The photo of the memorial plaque is dedicated to20 Officers of the Cheshire Constabulary killed inthe 1914-1918 War. Seeing Ernest's name posted waswhy I presumed he was of the Cheshire force.Charles Colin Thelwell served at Neston in theWirrel and later at Helsby from the Frodshamstation working at Ince and Elton area. DuringWW11 about 1941 he moved to Duddon and worked fromTarvin to Tarporly. I joined him and his wifeDorothy when I was evacuated in 1939 and stayedwith them at Helsby and Duddon till I left schoolin 1944. Colin retired and moved to Elesmere Porttill he died in 1978. The Group photo was waterdamaged when my London was bombed and demolished.With the aid of the computer was fortunate torecover it to its present conditionMy address is: Maurice Titmuss 2665 Wildhorse Drive Westbank, B.C. V4T 2K8 Canada,Thank you for indulgence. Best wishes MauriceTitmuss----- Original Message -----From: curatorSent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 10:49 AMSubject: re: Museum Search RequestDear Maurice, thank you for your enquiry, I dohave James's full police service record with theCheshire Constabulary. I also have small amount ofinformation on Colin, this is because post 1913successive civilian administrators within CheshireConstabulary have sought to destroy an officerspersonal file on his retirement only retaining theminimal amount of information to administer hispension. Ernest I have very little recordedregarding him in fact the only information I holdis that which appertains to his death during WW1taken from the Commonwealth War Graves. It ispossible that he may have been a member ofStockport Borough Police, for which we have norecords as this was an independent force from 1870onwards. Having said this if you are able toconfirm which force Ernest was a member of I wouldtruly appreciate this. Normally there are chargesinvolved in obtaining information from ourrecords, however if you so wish I will supplyeverything we have at no cost in exchange for whatyou hold, sadly we do not have any photographs. Ifyou agree then please come back to me, can youalso supply your postal address for accountingpurposes only although your report will beforwarded via email hopefully within 48 hours.Sincere best wishes Jim Talbot. Trustee andResearcher Museum of Police in Cheshire.Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 2:04 AMSubject: Museum Search Request*******************************************************************************MessageFrom: Maurice TitmussCopyRecord: YesCopyPhoto: NoRelative: YesDetails:PC # 321 James Thelwell 1863-1919 Father(my Grandfather) James was inEastham/Neston,Wirrel and later Eccleston Ibelieve. I have a group photo of 4 PC's, 2 actingSargents and Sargent taken at the Ecclestol PoliceOffice prior to the 1900's I would think, alsoindividual photos of the family men in theiruniformsPC # 196 Ernest Thelwell 1892-1916 Son (GrenadierGuards, Killed Somme WW1)PC # 366 Colin C Thelwell 1897-1978 Son (Retired)Joined force 1919Good Morning Maurice,I wanted to try and get the information sortedbefore your holidays and I have spent the lastcouple of days searching Volumes of what arecalled General Orders, each Volume contains about400 pages of handwritten information on theeveryday events of the Cheshire Constabulary fromthe 20th April 1857 to 1946, they are a fantasticsource, but in any event they have only given meone or two bits of information on Ernest andColin, I truly had hoped that they would havegiven me more, the likes of commendations,postings, and in the case of Ernest the last entryfor him is March 1914 when he appears on a list ofincrease for pay, so when he actually left thepolice and joined up is not recorded, Twosignificant things were noted during 1915 one wasa direct call from the Government for policeofficers to join up with the rank of L/Cpl in theMilitary Foot Police or Mounted Section and moreimportantly on the 9th of July a list of everyofficer in every Division, which means the entireforce, were awarded a pay rise by the StandingCommittee and having checked it three times forErnest his name does not appear, so this tends tosuggest that by July 1915 he may have already leftfor the Army. His death is not recorded within theOrders having checked up to December 1916. I evenchecked with Ancestry UK for his papers and justin case you don't have it I have attached theentry De Ruvigny's Roll of Honour Volume 4 Page209. Sadly this is all the information that hasbeen obtained.PC 196 Ernest James THELWELL. Born Circa 1892Eastham, Cheshire (Taken from the 1901 Census).Joined Cheshire Constabulary 22nd March 1913.9th June 1913 Posted Dukinfield Division, to bestationed at Dukinfield Police Station.5th November 1913 Passes 1st Examination in FirstAid to Injured.9th November 1914 Passes 2nd Examination in FirstAid to Injured. (If he had taken the 3rdExamination and passed this would have entitledhim to wear the St John's emblem on the sleeve ofhis Tunic).2nd March 1914 pay increased to 28/- per week.8th December 1914 Posted to Stockport Division tobe stationed at Bramhall.PC366 Colin Charles THELWELL, Born circa 1898Neston, Cheshire (taken from 1901 Census).Joined Cheshire Constabulary 30th March 1919.Retired to pension 24th August 1946.Age on retirement 48 years 10 months. Totalservice 27 years 140 days.On retirement was stationed at Runcorn.Annual pay on retirement £320. 17s. 11d. Annualpension £213. 18s. 7d.The only thing I can say Maurice, is I am trulysorry there is not more, the minimal informationretained has been brought about because ofsuccessive civilian administrations within theCheshire Constabulary, who only retained theminimum of information when an officer left orretired to administer his pension.I am a classic example of this total disregard forfuture information from records, several monthsbefore I retired in 2002 I checked my personalfile, having served a number of years with SpecialForces prior to joining the police and then 22years within the Special Branch (the posh new namefor it from this year is the Counter TerroristUnit) there was indeed a great deal ofinformation, including my off the cuff remarks toSir Peter Brooke, who was once Secretary of Stateto N. Ireland, I called him an 'idiot' for puttinghis and my life in danger, I had the unfortunatejob of being his protection officer for two weeks.Anyway on the day I retired I again checked mypersonal file absolutely nothing just enoughinformation to administer the pension, which I amthank full for. When we started this Museum we hadmany meetings with the Deputy Chief Constable, whois now the Chairman of the Museum, whilst it is noconsolation to you now the destruction of personalrecords has been stopped.Ok Maurice I have bored you enough now, it justleaves me to say have a wonderful holiday both ofyou. Sincere best wishes. Jim.PC James Thelwell, (back row on right when facingpicture)believed to be taken at Eccleston PoliceStation circa 1900